Tuesday 9 February 2010

Deathwing vs Wolfwing Part 2

 know that there have been many, many comparisons done between the Deathwing and the Wolfwing. The pros and cons of each. I have even talked about some of them in an earlier post detailing why I chose DW over WW. There is a very good over all comparision between Deathwing and Wolfwing done by Ron at FTW and can be read HERE

This however will be a direct comparison between my current Deathwing list and the closest I can get to it using the Wolfwing.

THE LISTS:

My Death Wing - 1750

~Belial

~Interogator Chaplain in Termie armour


~Squad 1
3 x Lightning Claws
Apothocary with Stormbolter / Powerfist
Banner Bearer with Stormbolter / Power fist

~Squad 2
Power Weapon / Storm Bolter
Heavy Flamer with Chainfist
2 x Powerfist / Storm Bolter
Lightning Claws

~Squad 3
Power Weapon / Storm Bolter
Stormbolter / Chainfist
2 x Powerfist / Storm Bolter
Lightning Claws

~Squad 4
2 x TH/SS
Assault Cannon / Powerfist
2 x Powerfist / Stormbolter

~Dreadnought with Assault Cannon
~Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon

~Land Raider with Extra Armour

This gives me 2 IC, 20 terminators, 2 Dreads and a Land Raider.

Belial and the chaplain run with Squad 1. This gives them a total of 6 LC and 5 PW I5 WS5 attacks, 15 LC I4 W4 attacks and 8 I1 W4 Powerfist attacks on the charge. Rerolling to hit. Its pretty devastating when it hits. These chaps either DS or walk across the field. The apothecary gives them the ability to shrug off 1 non-instant death wound per turn as long as they are not in CC.

Squad 3 Rolls in the Raider. This means that they generally sit in the backfield  protecting an objective while the raider snipes at vehicles.

Squad 2 and 4 walk across the field, each supported by a dreadnought.

This seems to work. I have not lost a 1v1 game yet using this configuration.

Now lets have a look at as close a list as I can come up with using WW



~Logan Grimnar

~Wolf Priest in Termie Armour

~Squad 1
3 x Wolf Claw
2 x Powerfist / Stormbolter


~Squad 2
Power Weapon/Storm Bolter
Heavy Flamer/Chain F ist
Wolf Claws
2 x Stormbolter/PowerFist



~Squad 3
Power Weapon/Storm Bolter
Wolf Claws
Stormbolter / Chainfist
2 x Stormbolter/PowerFist

~Squad 4
2 x TH/SS
Assault Cannon / Powerfist
2 x Powerfist / Stormbolter

~Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon
~Dreadnought with Assault Cannon

~Land Raider with extra armour

This is an exact model count duplicate.

My tactics would be slightly different here. I would run Grimnar with Squad 1 and the Wolf priest with Squad 4. This way, both of the squads would get preferred enemy.

Assuming he does not use his Living Legend rule, Grimnar gets 6 attacks on the charge, the Wolf Claw chaps would get 12 I4, WS4 attacks and I would choose for them to re-roll “to wound” and the Powerfists get 6 I1 WS4 attacks. Getting charged or charging this unit would be a very painful experience.

Squad 2 and 4 would be supported by a dreadnought each

Squad 3 would sit in the Raider, same as the Deathwing and Squad 4 would be walking.

COMPARISON:

The Wolfwing comes in at 55 points more costly. This can be solved by removing a single TH/SS termie from the list. This of course drops your unit count by 1.

Belial vs Grimnar is a no brainer. Grimnar utterly outclasses Belial in every way possible except price. He is more than double the cost of Belial.

Chaplain vs Wolf Priest. This one is a little more tough to call. The Wolf priest is 25 points cheaper and gives preferred enemy. However I would have to go with the Chaplain. He retains the old chaplain stats i.e. higher Initiative, more wounds and attacks and also allows you to re-roll hits on the charge. I think that is worth the 25 points.

Squad 1. The WW squad is cheaper but is missing out on the extra attack from the banner as well as the ignored wound from the apothecary. Do I think that makes a difference. Well, if Grimnar is attached I don’t think the extra attack matters but I think that being able to shrug off a wound is well worth the extra points. A Deathwing termie costs 53 points, the apothecary upgrade is 30. Save 1 wound and it has paid for itself. I think the Deathwing Squad comes out on top.

Squad 2 and 3 are almost identical in price so no real differences.

Squad 4. The WW squad is more expensive but overall is the better pick. You get the upgraded Storm shields so its more survivable and if you attach the Wolfpriest its going to be quite nasty in combat.

Dreadnoughts – roughly the same price so no real difference there. However the old style smoke makes them more survivable so I would choose the DW dreads.

Land Raider. Also a hard one to choose between. They cost the same but the WW version comes with the new POTMS. For a raider that is being used as a firebase I think this may be the better bet as it allows you to shoot with BS4 and split fire. However for a moving LR you really need the extra armour to stay mobile. While you can afford this in the DW list you won’t be able to get it in the WW list. In fact, with the old POTMS you can still go 6 inches without the extra armour if you are stunned plus shoot a weapon at BS2.
This, coupled with the old style smoke makes me choose the DW raider.

A few other army wide differences are the smoke launchers and the fact that Deathwing armies are all fearless. The smoke is an important issue. With the plethora of Melta around, the ability to make all penetrating hits glancing for a round is invaluable and has saved my bacon more than once. The pros and cons of fearless units are well documented so I wont rehash that except to say that I really like it.

CONCLUSION:

Its odd, when I started this I fully expected for the Wolfwing to come out on top. However, looking at it I would hazard that the Deathwing sneaks out in front. Now granted that this is a direct comparision and I doubt that a Wolfwing player would have a unit set up like this and is unlikely to have the same play style or tactics usage but I think the principles are sound. This is especially true since to get an army comparable to mine the Wolfwing has to compromise on number of models or wargear choices. It cant have both as it is just too pricey.

4 comments:

  1. Well, one thing's for sure, Wolf Wing would not *ever* take Thunder hammers and Storm Shields. Even w the upgraded Storm Shields, those termies are comin out at 63 points a pop. Not even *close* to worth it.

    Other than that, there are a few other important differences that you're not taking into account.

    Firstly, though the Deathwing have the Fearless special rule, Wolf Wing terminators have the Counter-Attack and Acute Senses special rules. Both of which are *sooo* much better than fearless, no comparison or questions asked. If my deathwing list had counter-attack, people would know about it.

    Secondly, though Logan's squad does not have the banner, he does have a one-use special rule that grants all models within 18" plus one attack for the round. Though it is only a one use thing, I think it's pretty even with the Banner, since it effects multiple units, especially since you can pop it on your opponents turn.

    I think you and I have a lot of ideas to trade here,
    Check out my blog:

    http://thewolfwing.blogspot.com/

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  2. I have to disagree with you on the counter attack/acute senses being that much better than fearless.

    While counter attack is a nice thing to have it is not a constant in that you do need to roll for it. I also quite enjoy escorting Space Wolves off the board when they fail their leadership rolls.

    That being said, its hard to compare them as they perform different functions.

    The banner issue is an interesting one. Being able to give your units an extra attack at a at a tactically important time can be a match winner, especially as its one of those things that your opponents tend to forget about. Its also good in that it stays with Logan and will then affect any squad he joins as opposed to the DW banner which is static to its own squad.

    Of course, an extra attack is good news regardless of how you come to it.

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  3. Yea, I'm rethinking the counter-attack vs. fearless statement myself. Just played with my wolf wing today and watched a 10 man terminator squad flee off the board because the blood angel's 'fear of darkness' special rule reduces their leadership to 7 (>.<)

    Although, while I didn't think about it at the time of the battle, Logan does have Saga of the Majesty, which means that he and all squads within 6" get to re-roll failed morale saves. so at least logan's ld 10 squad is not likely to fall back, and your other ld 9 squads, if within 6", are unlikely to fall back either.

    But like you said, counter attack and fearless perform two entirely different functions (acute senses is rubbish.).

    The real issue with the Wolf Wing is that while they have the very cheapest tactical terminators in the game, they also have the very most expensive assault terminators. So while I am tempted to put Logan and a squad of 7 Dual-wolf-claw termies into an LRC, 48 Points per terminator starts to add up pretty fast, and a single squad in a Land Raider that nears 900 points is not exactly ideal.

    Have you posted a 1,500 deathwing list? I haven't been able to find one on your blog, and if not, you should definitely post one. I would like to compare and play test some of the 1,500 point wolf wing lists that i have comprised with solid 1,500 point deathwing lists.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I dont have any 1500 point lists as the store I play in runs 1750-2000 points games.

    At 1500 I would likely drop the dreadnoughts as they are generally fragile and would only mean the loss of 2 models.

    I will have a think about it though.

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